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View Poll Results: 50 or 81

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Thread: 50 or 81?

  1. #17
    Blue Chip Prospect SAAviour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Governator View Post
    If we won 50 games it means we are going to be terrible for yeeaaaars. It's hard to watch or care after a 15 game stretch, imagine many years of this.
    I disagree, I think winning 81sh games makes you terrible for years, and there is a 22 year stretch to prove it. Losing 50 this year accelerates the rebuild.
    Plus people are commenting that Rogers will spend less....I think Rogers needs to see what a shite team does to the bottom line after the $$$ they have been raking in the last two years. When they see that they will realize it's best to rebuild fast and don't be cheap going forward, a good team is much more valuable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKat View Post
    Don't you mean 69 wins?
    lol good one!!

  3. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamGreenwood View Post
    This isn't like fantasy baseball. Having a terrible club and finishing dead last has repercussions.

    Fans stop going and watching on TV, resulting in less dollars, resulting in Rogers not wanting to spend on free agents or retain current players.
    The better draft pick doesn't make up that much difference.
    This is a very straightforward exercise. You calculate the value of a first overall pick over a 15th overall pick and compare it to the lost attendance, television, and other revenue of a .500 team over the worst team in baseball.

    Tanking to obtain an incremental increase in draft position for a team that just led the league in attendance and has the largest television market in baseball makes ludicrously bad business sense. We can build for the future without carpet bombing all the positive value the franchise has built up.

  4. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamGreenwood View Post
    Depends.

    If we could be a .500 club and still sell off a bunch of our assets for farm talent, then sign me up.
    This isn't like fantasy baseball. Having a terrible club and finishing dead last has repercussions.

    Fans stop going and watching on TV, resulting in less dollars, resulting in Rogers not wanting to spend on free agents or retain current players.
    The better draft pick doesn't make up that much difference.
    The Jays aren't tanking though. They are actually trying to win. They have an old veteran team.

    You can't prevent a bad season from happening in this case. If they were purposely tanking after making the ALCS last year then that's different. In this case, the Jays are bad in spite of trying to field a contender. If attendance, ratings, and revenue drop because of that, then what are you going to do?

    And yes, this is AA's fault. When you build for one year, that's all you're going to get. Shatkins tried to extend the window for as long as they could and it just wasn't meant to be. At least we can keep track of the minors now and know that Vlad, Bichette, etc, might actually play for the Jays if they pan out, rather than be traded for Joey Votto.

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  6. #21
    MVP LetTheBallFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keggy View Post
    This is a very straightforward exercise. You calculate the value of a first overall pick over a 15th overall pick and compare it to the lost attendance, television, and other revenue of a .500 team over the worst team in baseball.

    Tanking to obtain an incremental increase in draft position for a team that just led the league in attendance and has the largest television market in baseball makes ludicrously bad business sense. We can build for the future without carpet bombing all the positive value the franchise has built up.
    That's what you get when you limit the length of FA contracts, try to save money everywhere (just led in attendance...should be spending close to 200 MILLION...what are we this year?), your money saving signings don't play well, your team is the oldest in baseball, and are hit with key injuries early. "Tanking" is not really tanking....its just that we are the worst team in baseball period right now. As is...50 wins would be lucky to get to...don't think we are that low though. 60-65 wins seems realistic and would still probably be the 1st overall pick.
    See the ball and let it fly, Watch the ball soaring through the sky, Higher like a comet in the night air, Defying gravity is rare, Let the ball fly, Its homerun time!!!!!

  7. #22
    Gameday Master fatcowxlive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthe4th View Post
    That just isn't true.
    Lol and who do we have coming up that is a legit impact player who can give us a big boost next year? I'll wait

  8. #23
    MVP LetTheBallFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcowxlive View Post
    Lol and who do we have coming up that is a legit impact player who can give us a big boost next year? I'll wait
    Alford....might not be the whole year but he should make it up here next season the way he has put it together so far this year
    See the ball and let it fly, Watch the ball soaring through the sky, Higher like a comet in the night air, Defying gravity is rare, Let the ball fly, Its homerun time!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by HERPDERP View Post
    I blame AA more than Shatkins but I still support what he did. We got two very competitive and interesting post season appearances. Remember where we came from
    He made arguably the worst trade in franchise history. Dickey was inconsequential to our two post season runs, so had he not made that trade and you insert Thor into our already killer rotation, then there's your World Series team.

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  11. #25
    Blue Chip Prospect Bobthe4th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcowxlive View Post
    Lol and who do we have coming up that is a legit impact player who can give us a big boost next year? I'll wait
    You said "we have no help in the minors that we could look too next season". Any of Gurriel, Urena, SRF, Alford, McGuire, Ramirez, Harris, Tellez, Greene, Pentecost can make it to the big leagues by next season or earlier.

    Obv some of these players will never make it at all, but it's very unlikely that none of them will.

    If by "legit impact player who can give us a big boost" you mean someone who could compete for rookie of the year, I'd put Alford and Gurriel as the most likely.

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  13. #26
    Gameday Master fatcowxlive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LetTheBallFly View Post
    Alford....might not be the whole year but he should make it up here next season the way he has put it together so far this year
    BIG impact I said, I'm not doubting that we'll have people up, but I'm saying a legit player who can help the team out immediately. Alford is great, but he's in his first season above high-A

  14. #27
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    I don't know that people are fully appreciating how bad a 50-112 team would be. We aren't doing any selling if we're a 50 win team. That means Bautista is finished, JD is hampered by injuries all year, Travis isn't actually good, multiple rotation arms have exploded etc... We'd have a trifecta of terrible things happening concurrently:
    - watching a team so bad that they have one of the worst records of all-time
    - watching the asset value of like half the roster crater
    - watching fan support dwindle and payroll likely decrease as the org. becomes a national laughingstock

    81 wins please
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  16. #28
    Gameday Master fatcowxlive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthe4th View Post
    You said "we have no help in the minors that we could look too next season". Any of Gurriel, Urena, SRF, Alford, McGuire, Ramirez, Harris, Tellez, Greene, Pentecost can make it to the big leagues by next season or earlier.

    Obv some of these players will never make it at all, but it's very unlikely that none of them will.

    If by "legit impact player who can give us a big boost" you mean someone who could compete for rookie of the year, I'd put Alford and Gurriel as the most likely.
    Huh? You think Gurriel is going to make the jump from high-A to the majors in one year? Man you guys are crazy lol

  17. #29
    Moderator Governator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAAviour View Post
    I disagree, I think winning 81sh games makes you terrible for years, and there is a 22 year stretch to prove it. Losing 50 this year accelerates the rebuild.
    Plus people are commenting that Rogers will spend less....I think Rogers needs to see what a shite team does to the bottom line after the $$$ they have been raking in the last two years. When they see that they will realize it's best to rebuild fast and don't be cheap going forward, a good team is much more valuable.

    Again... yeeeaars. You're talking 50 wins man. That's hard to do by trying let alone climb out of and get to 90+ again. It's much harder to fully rebuild a baseball team than say hockey or basketball. There is so much that isn't guaranteed in the game and hitting the reset button doesn't win you anything nor does it guarantee you'll even see a drafted player crack your MLB roster in 5 years. You can't just tank, nab Austin Matthews and make the postseason 8 months later. I have no problem being sellers at the deadline, dumping veterans for multiple draft picks or minor league talent but if someone gave me the option as a baseball fan to see my team win 50 games or be a .500 team I'll take the .500 every time with hopes of retooling to be better.
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  18. #30
    DONOR P2F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcowxlive View Post
    Huh? You think Gurriel is going to make the jump from high-A to the majors in one year? Man you guys are crazy lol
    Absolutely. He will be fast-tracked barring major injury or a complete bed-shitting.

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  20. #31
    Blue Chip Prospect Bobthe4th's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatcowxlive View Post
    Huh? You think Gurriel is going to make the jump from high-A to the majors in one year? Man you guys are crazy lol
    He has a chance to yes. He's 23 and was given a 7 year contract, he's not a freshman drafted out of college.

    A lot of people believed he could make it this year, but having a year out last year likely delays that. Obviously he has to succeed in the minors first, the same as any other prospect.

  21. #32
    All Star AdamGreenwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keggy View Post
    This is a very straightforward exercise. You calculate the value of a first overall pick over a 15th overall pick and compare it to the lost attendance, television, and other revenue of a .500 team over the worst team in baseball.

    Tanking to obtain an incremental increase in draft position for a team that just led the league in attendance and has the largest television market in baseball makes ludicrously bad business sense. We can build for the future without carpet bombing all the positive value the franchise has built up.
    There's a couple of other factors too.
    Having a 50 win team makes it very difficult to sign quality free agents next year, unless we significantly overpay them.
    On the other side, assets like Donaldson and Estrada will depreciate over the year, so we'll get less value back if we trade them now.

    Personally, I'm all for starting the rebuild, but I still want to do our best to put a competitive team out there, or even a team filled with young, talented guys who just need a little more seasoning. This can be easily done by trading good players away for bad contracts + minor league talent. Stick the bad contracts on the field and hope they rebound (ie Liriano), and if not we bought ourselves some decent prospects.

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