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Thread: 2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

  1. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Havok View Post
    It’s all posturing. A salary cap without 50/50 revenue split and a salary floor doesn’t make sense, they know that, the owners know that….it’s all about who blinks first
    I'm not so sure it is posturing. I really don't think the PA has any clue what it is doing, and I think MLB knows that. Combined with the pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few owners who would be just as happy to sacrifice a likely unprofitable season for a better deal for themselves.
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  2. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abomination View Post
    Yep. This thing is going to be loooonnnggg.

    So the players also want all 30 teams to be competitive, but they don't want a salary cap structure that would make that happen.
    They want 30 teams to be competitive by spending money though.

  3. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
    They want 30 teams to be competitive by spending money though.
    Yeah, but that's impossible unless you have a salary cap and floor, which the players are dead set against.
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  4. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abomination View Post
    Yeah, but that's impossible unless you have a salary cap and floor, which the players are dead set against.
    Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant77 View Post
    Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.
    In general there can be. There has to be a cap to have most teams be competitive and going for it though, which was the discussion. Frankly, it's kind of silly for the players to even care much about the cap imo. It would affect like 4 or 5 teams at the very most (probably less). If the cost of a moderately high floor (maybe 80M?) is a soft cap in the 180M range, the players almost certainly come out way ahead.

    Maybe players need to start getting paid an individually negotiated percentage of payroll, with the team figure set based on league revenues or something. That could inherently eliminate any need for a cap or floor. Honestly, as players learn to better market themselves, they may soon make more from promotional deals than they make in actual pay anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abomination View Post
    I'm not so sure it is posturing. I really don't think the PA has any clue what it is doing, and I think MLB knows that. Combined with the pandemic, I wouldn't be surprised if there were quite a few owners who would be just as happy to sacrifice a likely unprofitable season for a better deal for themselves.
    The numbers just came out that players salaries on average declined for the last few years, while team valuations continue to rise. It's the perfect ammunition to use in the negotiations.

    The players have been bent over in the last couple of negotiations, but they aren't stupid. They know they simply cannot get everything they ask for, they're just looking for a solid W in their column this time and it won't be a cap/floor situation because that would definitely be something that requires a long work stoppage. More likely it will be some give from the owners on salaries for younger players, arbitration changes etc in exchange for perhaps a slightly lower luxury tax, or some revenue sharing tweaks.
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    Changes I want as a fan (too bad our wants don't mean shit!) is a decently high floor, get rid of service time manipulation.
    I just want to see good games with the best players the teams have.

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  9. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant77 View Post
    Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.
    In theory there can be, but a modest floor like 60 million would only have impacted like 4 teams last season, and only really 1 team by more than 10 million, Baltimore who was 42 million. Miami was at 58, Pittsburgh at 54 and Cleveland at 50. So impacting those 4 teams for a total of 36 million doesnt really move the needle much.

    Any kind of salary floor that would actually be impactful to the players would probably have to be 90 million or higher. Using 90 million you have 8 teams that need to add salary and 2 more than can't give any away to stay at that line.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant77 View Post
    Why can't there be a floor without a cap? Having a modest floor around 60 million or so will force teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh to actually add free agent talent or at least accelerate their rebuilds by taking on bad contracts. Having 110 loss teams in long cycles of losing isn't good for the league. Every fan should be 100% behind the players on that one.
    Not really. Some of these teams that are forced to spend $60-$100 million in seasons where they have no chance of competing are just going to end up folding.
    If your in the middle of a deep rebuild, and the only thing you can do is pay a bunch of money for old free agents that are gonna move the needle from a .450 team to a .460 team, it isn't going to help draw the fans in.

    Maybe if it happens, teams can get a bit creative in spending their salary minimum in taking on bad contracts, and prospects at the same time, but a salary minimum isn't going to make 30 teams magically competitive. It's going to bankrupt a bunch of teams, while not giving them the flexibility to do a proper rebuild.

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    All Baltimore would need to do is sign Adley to a long term front loaded deal, and Grayson when the time comes. Salary floor met, still the same shitty team for a few years yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamGreenwood View Post
    Not really. Some of these teams that are forced to spend $60-$100 million in seasons where they have no chance of competing are just going to end up folding.
    If your in the middle of a deep rebuild, and the only thing you can do is pay a bunch of money for old free agents that are gonna move the needle from a .450 team to a .460 team, it isn't going to help draw the fans in.

    Maybe if it happens, teams can get a bit creative in spending their salary minimum in taking on bad contracts, and prospects at the same time, but a salary minimum isn't going to make 30 teams magically competitive. It's going to bankrupt a bunch of teams, while not giving them the flexibility to do a proper rebuild.
    These teams make more in revenue sharing and TV revenue than they would spend on a 60 million floor or perhaps even an 80 million floor. The notion that they would go bankrupt is ludicrous.

    Obviously it's not going to make every team competitive. That's an impossibility. However, we would probably see the Orioles and Pirates in on a guy like Seiya Suzuki. Maybe they would add a vet who falls through the cracks and deal him at the deadline. Maybe they would take a Grichuk for a prospect. Teams just not trying at all is such a horrible look for the league. I agree with players that it has to change.

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    https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/...net-worth.html

    MLB Owners’ Net Worth
    By Darragh McDonald | December 29, 2021 at 11:16am CDT

    Whenever a baseball player agrees to a contract, the financials of the deal are quickly reported by various media outlets, including here at MLBTR. What gets discussed much less often, however, are the financial details of the people paying those paychecks. Here is each team’s primary owner, along with their net worth, with source links provided. (Quick caveat that financial numbers of this nature are fluid and subject to change.)

    Angels: Arturo Moreno – $3.6 billion. (Forbes link)
    Astros: Jim Crane – $1.4 billion. (Forbes link)
    Athletics: John Fisher – $2.6 billion. (Forbes link)
    Blue Jays: Rogers Communications, chairman Edward Rogers III – $11.5 billion. (L.A. Times link)
    Braves: Liberty Media, chairman John Malone – $8 billion. (Forbes link)
    Brewers: Mark Attanasio – $700MM. (L.A. Times link)
    Cardinals: William DeWitt Jr. – $4 billion. (L.A. Times link)
    Cubs: Ricketts family – $4.5 billion (Forbes link)
    Diamondbacks: Ken Kendrick – $600 million. (L.A. Times link)
    Dodgers: Guggenheim Baseball Management, controlling partner Mark Walter – $5 billion. (Forbes link)
    Giants: Charles B. Johnson – $5.8 billion. (Forbes link)
    Guardians: Dolan family – $4.6 billion. (L.A Times link)
    Mariners: John Stanton – $1.1 billion. (L.A. Times link)
    Marlins: Bruce Sherman – $500MM. (L.A. Times link)
    Mets: Steve Cohen – $15.9 billion. (Forbes link)
    Nationals: Lerner family – $4.9 billion. (Forbes link)
    Orioles: Peter Angelos – $2 billion (L.A. Times link)
    Padres: Peter Seidler – personal net worth unknown, Seidler Equity Partners estimated net worth of $3 billion. (ESPN link)
    Phillies: John Middleton – $3.4 billion. (Forbes link)
    Pirates: Bob Nutting – $1.1 billion. (L.A. Times link)
    Rangers: Ray Davis (co-chairman with Bob R. Simpson) – $2.2 billion. (Forbes link)
    Rays: Stuart Sternberg – $800MM. (L.A. Times link)
    Red Sox: John Henry – $3.6 billion (Forbes link)
    Reds: Robert H. Castellini – $400MM. (L.A. Times link)
    Rockies: Richard L. Monfort – $700MM. (L.A. Times link)
    Royals: John Sherman – $1.25 billion. (L.A. Times link)
    Tigers: Ilitch Holdings – $3.8 billion (L.A. Times link)
    Twins: Pohlad family – $3.8 billion (Forbes link)
    White Sox: Jerry Reinsdorf – $1.7 billion (Forbes link)
    Yankees: Steinbrenner family – $3.8 billion (Forbes link)

  17. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant77 View Post
    These teams make more in revenue sharing and TV revenue than they would spend on a 60 million floor or perhaps even an 80 million floor. The notion that they would go bankrupt is ludicrous.

    Obviously it's not going to make every team competitive. That's an impossibility. However, we would probably see the Orioles and Pirates in on a guy like Seiya Suzuki. Maybe they would add a vet who falls through the cracks and deal him at the deadline. Maybe they would take a Grichuk for a prospect. Teams just not trying at all is such a horrible look for the league. I agree with players that it has to change.
    They have overdone the compensation for teams with low payrolls, and shitty Miami has taken full advantage of it, which is why there's such a problem. We can't have a system where some teams make more money by remaining uncompetitive with half-empty stadiums than by trying to compete.

  18. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamGreenwood View Post
    They have overdone the compensation for teams with low payrolls, and shitty Miami has taken full advantage of it, which is why there's such a problem. We can't have a system where some teams make more money by remaining uncompetitive with half-empty stadiums than by trying to compete.
    I agree with all of that. I don't think that removing revenue sharing provides a path to a new CBA. I think that a salary floor with expanded playoffs addresses the major sticking point on each side.

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    Kind of hate Semien after watching this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofx_FSn4Fz0

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    Among all players to step on the field in 2019, 63.2% had less than three years of service time. They accounted for 53.6% of days of service time accumulated, but they combined for only 9.8% of player pay.

    That's the problem the PA needs to be focused on right there.
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