Jays 2021/22 General Off-Season Discussion

[wamco]

Found elsewhere and expressed
More eloquently than me-

The purpose of election is chiefly, and in its purest sense, for the recipient. The fact that others have a rooting interest in the canonization is very secondary. Members should be admitted solely on their qualifications, and as such, can be disqualified; particularly for cheating. It's stat padding. Resume padding. Qualification padding. We celebrating the guy with the fake MD diploma? We shaking the hand of the non-military guy wearing the fake Army Rangers uniform stealing valour? We putting Ben Johnson in the track and field HOF now? Membership can not be disassociated from the actual member. jmho.

[John_Havok]

Found elsewhere and expressed
More eloquently than me-

The purpose of election is chiefly, and in its purest sense, for the recipient. The fact that others have a rooting interest in the canonization is very secondary. Members should be admitted solely on their qualifications, and as such, can be disqualified; particularly for cheating. It's stat padding. Resume padding. Qualification padding. We celebrating the guy with the fake MD diploma? We shaking the hand of the non-military guy wearing the fake Army Rangers uniform stealing valour? We putting Ben Johnson in the track and field HOF now? Membership can not be disassociated from the actual member. jmho.

Precedent has already admitted cheaters to the Hall of Fame. The list is incredibly long. Keep trying. Whoever said that is full of shit trying to feel good about himself.

[Grant77]

Precedent has already admitted cheaters to the Hall of Fame. The list is incredibly long. Keep trying. Whoever said that is full of shit trying to feel good about himself.

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

[John_Havok]

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

His only real knock is that he was DH for pretty much his whole career and while I can entertain and understand that argument to a point, there's no denying his actual numbers are worthy of induction.

[BTS]

David Ortiz was caught using steroids for god sakes. He got in because members of the media like his personality. If this was based on performance on the baseball field and ethics then he would be nowhere close.

I think he did enough on the field to warrant inclusion:

- 500+ homeruns
- 23rd all-time in RBI
- career 140 wRC+
- 3-time WS champion
- I think he's first all-time in WAR accrued at DH, but it might be close with Thome/Thomas

I'd also like to see nelson Cruz get in, and I think he will if he hangs on long enough to hit another 51 homeruns.

My issue with this class is that there are more deserving players left out.

[BTS]

Also, apparently FG has decided to go from an annoying giant yellow banner to a giant yellow popup ad that has to be closed every time you load a new page. I hate everything about the way that site is managed.

[Grant77]

His only real knock is that he was DH for pretty much his whole career and while I can entertain and understand that argument to a point, there's no denying his actual numbers are worthy of induction.

It's quite a stretch to say that his numbers are obviously Hall of Fame worthy. At best he's a very borderline case and to put a player like that in on the first ballot is as bad as the Harold Baines induction in my opinion.

Consider Edgar Marrinez, who provided significantly more value (nearly 30% more), barely made it into the Hall of Fame. Contemporaries like Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Carlos Beltran, and Andruw Jones were even higher than Martinez.

Joey Votto passed Ortiz in WAR 5 years ago and people still consider him a borderline case. Similarly valuable players from his era are guys like Ian Kinsler, Andrew McCutchen, Matt Holliday and not other Hall of Famers.

In fact, of 11 hitters that got more than 10% of the vote this year, David Ortiz placed 10th in WAR ahead of only Omar Vizquel. Bobby Abreu was also higher.

[The Cats Ass]

Edgar Martinez had a higher WAR in less games 65.5 (2055 games) vs 51.0 (2408 games), and he had a higher wRC+ than Ortiz. It took him until his 10th and final year to get in.

[Jimcanuck]

Not sure what is worse, All Star Game voting or HOF voting

[John_Havok]

It's quite a stretch to say that his numbers are obviously Hall of Fame worthy. At best he's a very borderline case and to put a player like that in on the first ballot is as bad as the Harold Baines induction in my opinion.

Consider Edgar Marrinez, who provided significantly more value (nearly 30% more), barely made it into the Hall of Fame. Contemporaries like Manny Ramirez, Scott Rolen, Carlos Beltran, and Andruw Jones were even higher than Martinez.

Joey Votto passed Ortiz in WAR 5 years ago and people still consider him a borderline case. Similarly valuable players from his era are guys like Ian Kinsler, Andrew McCutchen, Matt Holliday and not other Hall of Famers.

In fact, of 11 hitters that got more than 10% of the vote this year, David Ortiz placed 10th in WAR ahead of only Omar Vizquel. Bobby Abreu was also higher.

I think the argument there is that the voters were idiots when it came to Martinez, not that they got it wrong with Ortiz. Also, comparing the DH to position players is not apples to apples.

[The Cats Ass]

Not sure what is worse, All Star Game voting or HOF voting

HOF voting without a doubt. ASG is for the fans, let the fans decide. It was a different story though when the ASG decided WS home field advantage.

[BTS]

Edgar Martinez had a higher WAR in less games 65.5 (2055 games) vs 51.0 (2408 games), and he had a higher wRC+ than Ortiz. It took him until his 10th and final year to get in.

Edgar should have been inducted earlier. The voters held his lack of postseason games/success against him and rewarded Ortiz for his extensive postseason track record. I don't really think it's wrong to credit Ortiz for his playoff resume.

I also think the voters had to overcome their aversion to inducting a DH. Now that they did, the floodgates might be open a bit. I'd like to see the same happen with relievers. Wagner should be in. Eventually Chapman, Jansen, and Kimbrel if they finish strong. Hader some day?

[Boxcar]

I think the argument there is that the voters were idiots when it came to Martinez, not that they got it wrong with Ortiz. Also, comparing the DH to position players is not apples to apples.

You are well aware of why Grant is so opposed to Ortiz. If he was a lifelong Brewer, his induction wouldn't be an issue.

[Boxcar]

Soo.. who is the brainlet/retard as you like to say??

Still you.

[John_Havok]

You are well aware of why Grant is so opposed to Ortiz. If he was a lifelong Brewer, his induction wouldn't be an issue.

Maybe Delgado gets a chance now. Guy was railroaded off the ballot with a whimper when his numbers in many respects are very comparable to Ortiz. Better hitter on a rate basis but didn't have those extra 3 or 4 years at the end to push him higher.

Didnt get the postseason success overall but when he did make the playoffs with the Mets, he hit very well.

Just happened to be on the ballot when 1b/DH types weren't cool.

[Spanky99]

So basically a large amount of writers just vote for guys they like on a personal level, regardless of their on-field accomplishments.

Correct.